John Frederick- Living the Evolution of Creativity and Leadership
New Podcast Episode of Creative Flow: Thinkers and Change Agents
We are sharing the podcast and transcription of the eighteenth episode of the Creative Flow: Thinkers and Change Agents Podcast featuring guest John Frederick. He shares the story of a postcard that changed his life and many examples of his role in the evolution of Creativity and Leadership
Listen to the Podcast: https://radiopublic.com/creative-flow-thinkers-and-change-G7grRp
Hosts Kim Marie McKernan and Anthony Billoni share their favorite quotes from the guests.
Kim’s Favorite Quote
“First of all, I think it’s a mindset to get people to believe that they have the ability to be creative, and however they define that, but to use their imagination and creative and critical thinking to come up with new and better ways to decide what it is we have to do, and how we might do it and hopefully do it together.”
John Frederick
Tony’s Favorite Quotes
“When I attend CPSI, it’s just different. I see things differently. I hear things differently. I definitely, back when I was doing more of it, would dance differently. But I just felt so alive. So that to me was that’s that sense of flow, it’s just alive in every aspect of what you’re about.
John Frederick
Kim’s Favorite Quote
“First of all, I think it’s a mindset to get people to believe that they have the ability to be creative, and however they define that, but to use their imagination and creative and critical thinking to come up with new and better ways to decide what it is we have to do, and how we might do it and hopefully do it together.”
Anthony Billoni 0:24
Hello, this is the 18th episode of the Creative Flow Podcast Series hosted by Anthony Billoni and Kim Marie McKernan. It features discussions with thinkers and change agents important to the science of creativity.
Kim Marie McKernan 0:39
We would like to welcome John Frederick, a lifelong educator, who established a Leadership Development Center at Buffalo State College and taught at the International Center for Studies in Creativity, SUNY Buffalo State for 25 years. He created the Center for Executive Leadership at Daemen College, and designed the Executive Leadership and Change MS program. John won the Distinguished Leader Award at the Creative Education Foundation and has led sessions and attended the Creative Problem-Solving Institute (CPSI) for over 38 years. He is also a founding member of The Mindfulness Alliance, and a past board member of Leadership Buffalo. Welcome, John.
Anthony Billoni 1:21
John, could you please share with us the story of how you became involved in deliberate creativity?
John Frederick 1:28
Sure, thanks for having me, Kim, and Tony. It is a story and one that I remember vividly, and it was the spring of 1970. And I had gotten some mail, I was living, you know, with the parents just about to graduate high school. And I got some mail from Buff state, and I remember being up in my bedroom opening this, the mail and in the mail was an invitation and a postcard. And I’ve since referred to this as the postcard that changed my life. And the card was a response to an invitation to join a research study that was called the Creativity Project. And I found the postcard it’s in some archive materials around but it’s, you know, starts off I’m hereby applying for enrollment in the creative study sequence of four courses. And I vividly remember having that postcard up in my bedroom and filling it out and then sending it in. So that was the introduction. And come to find out, I did look into this, I guess there were 300 and some people invited these are all freshmen in that year, 150 of them were in the experimental group, which I was one of those 150, and we did the four courses over four semesters with Sid Parnes and Ruth Noller, and quite an experience. I’ll remember one of my projects, this is one of my other little memories, is we had to create something using our creativity, come up with something tangible output. And I ended up doing a kind of an audio routine with Captain Creative. I came up with Captain Creative. So, when he was out there solving the world’s problems and issues, he would break into, you know, “in what ways might we” kind of problem-solving approaches. That was his Captain Creative superpower. So that was kind of cool.
Kim Marie McKernan 3:38
Wonderful. So, John, why was that such a significant study?
John Frederick 3:45
Well, I think the study itself was groundbreaking, and proving that creativity could be improved, slash taught, using deliberate methods, and much of the involvement, involve measurement, you know, we would have the pre and post-tests before the semester, and I was always part of the experimental group, but I think the control group had those same, those same types of measurements done. And it did show that particularly in the, well in two areas, they looked for increased quantity. So were those persons able to create greater numbers of ideas, but also increased quality of ideas they had, and I was never involved or privy to how the judging was done, but they had raters that would look at the quality of ideas that came from these measurement sessions and found that not only were there a greater quantity but there was a higher level of quality.
Kim Marie McKernan 4:47
Great, and we all know because of our involvement with the center that there are still people who question whether everyone is creative, and this study really went very far in proving that in the science of creativity
John Frederick 5:04
Very much so, yeah.
Kim Marie McKernan. 5:05
So, can you share with us how you have used creativity in your work? Do you have any success stories that you would like to share?
John Frederick 5:14
For sure, probably, I was trying to think one of the earliest direct applications was, after undergraduate I came, I left the area for the year came back to Buff State and went into the graduate, not, the Creative Studies graduate program, when I first graduated it was not established, I ended up enrolling in the student personnel graduate program. And as such, I was a residence hall director and dorm director as you like to refer to them. And in my second year of doing that, I was able to be the director in the hall called the creative living set. It was a really interesting experiment that all of the students in the dormitory, which was South Main, at that time, I’m not sure I think it’s offices now. But all the students in that dorm were required to take creative studies courses for that year. And so, we would have workshops and guest speakers that would supplement the coursework that those students were involved in during the year. And they were very creative in terms of getting around some of the rules and regulations, but also in dealing with issues, you know, the resident assistants that would have to work with any kind of issue that came up on the floor, they would actually apply some of the CPS tools and techniques and processes to work out things that would otherwise probably just be done as a, you know, a regular reprimand or some kind of traditional process. So, it was pretty cool.
Kim Marie McKernan 6:52
Wow, really saw it in action.
John Frederick. 6:54
Yeah,
Anthony Billoni 6:55
That’s very, very exciting. And since you were there, pretty close to the beginning, and we know that the history of creativity is continuing to evolve in practice and in education, what would be your reflections on how it has changed over time?
John Frederick 7:18
Well, it’s obviously become more, more accepted. Even though there are still a number of, you alluded to earlier, a number of naysayers and challenges, but it’s, it’s become more nuanced. And just the whole breakdown between creativity and innovation, are those where they overlap or are those different, different processes? So, I think there’s a more in-depth consideration of all of the nuanced applications, and approaches to creativity, and innovation.
Anthony Billoni 7:54
Yeah, it’s, you know, that we just had that dust-up over the article that came out where the author is talking about how might we not, you know, is Bs, like, we all know that those articles come out about every two years-
John Frederick 8:31
True, true
Anthony Billoni 8:32
-and the best part is Sid <Parnes> used to get those same types of protests all the way back in the 50s. There, share those anecdotes. So, I think we still have a ways to go to keep spreading the gospel of creativity, and you certainly have been there at many junctures.
John Frederick 8:32
Right, I can remember, I don’t know if it was initially from Sid <Parnes> or just through those of all those involvements, but one of the early shifts, was not asking the question, “Are you creative?” or “How are you?”-You know-“how creative are you?” It’s “How are you creative?” And I think that’s become more accepted and recognizing the difference of styles of creativity. One of my earliest applications was working with leadership development. And kind of an analogy that I use there is there’s a distinction between capital (L) Leadership and small (l) leadership. Leadership with a title, responsibility versus just those persons who are making a difference wherever they can, within their circle of influence. And I think the same thing with creativity. You know, initially, people think creativity, it was the artists, you know, it was the painters, etc., etc. And I think now there’s more recognition of small (c )creativity across the board.
Anthony Billoni 9:36
We’ve done certainly done our part to make that happen.
John Frederick 9:40
Yeah.
Kim Marie McKernan 9:41
Yeah. For those folks who may not know about small (c ) can you explain that, John?
John Frederick 9:47
I just think it goes back to recognizing it. First of all, I think it’s a mindset to get people to believe that they have the ability to be creative, and however, they define that, but to use their imagination and creative and critical thinking to come up with new and better ways to decide what it is we have to do, and how we might do it and hopefully do it together. So, I think that the recognition of differences of style has become really helpful. You know, I know we’re currently at a Daemen College, I think you mentioned that. And we get into looking at the different styles of creativity within the program and how important it is to recognize and honor those differences within yourself as much as within those people that you’re working with, and hopefully trying to bring it out either as a capital (L) or a small (l) leader.
Kim Marie McKernan 10:42
Yeah, and I think it’s- I had a reflection this week when I was thinking about what creative problem solving has done in my life, and I just think I use the small, see all the time as a way of life, you know, that I don’t see impediments anymore like I used to, and there’s always a way around it. And there’s always a tool. So, it really becomes almost like a lifestyle, where then just following the full creative problem-solving process.
John Frederick 11:13
Right.
Kim Marie McKernan 11:14
Great. You have researched and worked extensively on the topics of mindfulness and the role of a heightened sense of awareness for leaders. Can you share some insights for the audience?
John Frederick 11:28
Yeah, and the fact that I, one of the ways that I, without a doubt, wouldn’t have been able to be successful without using creative problem solving was developing that Executive Leadership and Change program at Daemen, now Leadership and Innovation. But even from the beginning there, CPS has always been a foundational piece of it. And the relationship to mindfulness for me was just that heightened sense of awareness. So really paying attention to what’s going on with the new, those others that are going to be involved in that particular situation, and the general context, the system, and so, early on, I coined the phrase, “Keeping three eyes open”, “3EO”. In fact, if you probably asked any of the students who’ve gone through the program at Daemen, they’ll know 3EO. But 3EO led me through working with another faculty member in the program, into the whole realm of mindfulness. And I got introduced to contemplative education and was just intrigued that so many of my inherent ways of thinking about creativity and teaching and leadership, were involved in this official organizational study and research that’s been going on. So, I was really excited. And then became much more involved with the mindfulness movement, particularly the local group, the Mindfulness Alliance. That’s been around for probably four years now. And we had a great, great gathering a few years ago, before the pandemic. Over at the Adams Mark hotel, we got together the hundreds of people that share and come together and look at the applications of mindfulness.
Anthony Billoni 13:19
Tell us more about what the Mindfulness Institute is up to. And what, how did it come about?
John Frederick 13:27
Well, it started with the, there was a program at UB that brought in people that were interested in applying mindfulness to education, really, really under the umbrella of contemplative education. And there was such an interest, those organizers, and I was kind of on the side, in fact, it was during CPSI. So, I was not able to attend the conference that year, I was across campus, at CPSI, and the organizers had such a great response. And I got involved working with them and came up with the idea to come up with our own local tax exempt. I was thinking those initials
Anthony Billoni 14:05
Oh, 501 C3
John Frederick 14:07
So that we formed that, and then have continued to work, and it’s been challenging over the last 18 months or so, but looking at putting together a curriculum that can promote the development of mindfulness individually, and then collectively, and then beyond that, in terms of organizationally, and hopefully, through a community focus as well. I know that’s in been in the planning stages for a while, as I think Kim is quite aware.
Anthony Billoni 14:38
It’s a, it’s a very hot term these days, mindfulness. So, if you could tell the uninitiated in a sentence, what is described as mindfulness, could you do that?
John Frederick 14:51
I can give it my best shot, and I’ll look at it from my end of this. It’s having that heightened sense of awareness. So, it’s, it’s taking the time to become settled and centered. And trying to get rid of those distractions. Get rid of all of those, you know, we talked about deferring judgment, it’s kind of related to that, but just really taking a chance. And it sometimes involves breathing quite often, to just settle down and focus in on what’s really happening at present with you. And then putting that sense of calm, I think, taking it forward into those things that you need to work on. So, it can be done as a healthful thing, it can be a stress reduction thing, as well as the ability I think, to become more focused, in whatever your work is. And that’s how I use it in class. In fact, we have, we call it a moment of mindfulness before we start class. And we do a variety of things just to get people settled in focus, they’re all working adults who are coming in, usually from working an eight-hour, ten-hour day, and just finding that moment of mindfulness really helps change the atmosphere in the room in a really productive way.
Anthony Billoni 16:17
I’m on your side on that. And we know Sid <Parnes> was always looking to even the Eastern arts and Eastern philosophies, and several other ways to explore. And we often talk about when we do data gathering, we go well beyond the facts on paper and go into emotions and feelings and things. And maybe in what you’ve just been discussing you are presaging your answer here, but what do you see as the future of creativity? And where would you like to see our community focus?
John Frederick 16:54
Well, when I think about that, it really comes into the realm of hope. I’m hopeful that we can use some of what we’ve learned in our learning about creativity, and the ability to be collectively collaborative to bridge the big divide that seems to be there in our country. And I do think there’s a wonderful opportunity to do that. That kind of emotion, emotionally and personally divisive level, but also just with all, with everything that’s changed through COVID, so many opportunities to build on the strengths, and to overcome some of the negatives there, and you can, just using some of these processes to do that, I think it’s a wonderful opportunity. So, I think, hopefully, you know, that we can all be part of facilitating that.
Anthony Billoni 17:48
Hopefully, we’re gonna lean on hope. Is that what you’re saying?
John Frederick 17:52
Yeah, I’m liking that
Anthony Billoni 17:53
Well, you make me think of, at Winterfest once, we had George Land there, and he goes, “I know, I could kind of let my hair down because I’m talking to you creative types.” and he gave a whole talk about how, at his age, when he presented to us his whole thing was about love. And I don’t feel, I feel like you’re kind of playing in the same sandbox. And yeah, I would love to see how might we really jump in? And then we saw how Sid was able to help. Cuba and what happened in South Africa.
John Frederick 18:36
Wonderful example. Yeah. real-world situations taking advantage. Yeah.
Kim Marie McKernan 18:43
Yeah. And I 'm interested as well, this history you have with CPSI, the Creative Problem-Solving Institute, how have you seen that evolve the future?
John Frederick 18:54
Oh, CPSI, again, it’s one of those early on situations after taking the four courses in 1970–71, we were able to take independent study courses with Sid <Parnes> and Ruth <Noller> And then as part of the independent study course, we were introduced to CPSI. So, I think it must have been 1970, probably 1972–73. I ran the film room, which was literally running film, acetate films for people who were on break or after dinner. And that’s when I was introduced to the film, and I actually still show a clip of it sometimes in a class of why man creates. If you haven’t seen it, you should watch it and if you’ve seen it before, watch it again. It’s a great short film.
Kim Marie McKernan 19:50
That’s a new one I have to add to-
John Frederick 19:52
But then through that, I stated about as I was working with the Creative Living Center, I was offered the opportunity need to go through facilitation training, at CPSI, I think it was just f1 and f2. It had different variations of numbers and lanes then. But so that was what started my involvement of becoming more involved in CPSI, and coming back and being involved as a facilitator, worked a number of years with the Youth-Wise program. That’s a wonderful program, the opportunity to take advantage of that. And, Tony, I know that you and your family have taken advantage of that. But CPSI is incredible. It’s just, it’s one of those experiences that it’s, I don’t think you can replicate. Especially back then back in the day, some of them, you know, the experiences we had with George Land and, and others who were there. Were there at Buff State, were back over at Buff State.
Kim Marie McKernan 20:54
And it’s amazing how many of our speakers, Tony, have found their way to creativity through CPSI. It’s, yeah. Wonderful. Well, the last question, the close that we ask each of our speakers is, tell us about your creative flow.
John Frederick 21:14
Creative flow. You know, it’s, I think two things come to mind. Well, one I just mentioned at CPSI. When I attend CPSI, it’s just different. I see things differently. I hear things differently. I definitely, back when I was doing more of it, would dance differently. But I just felt so alive. So that to me was that’s that sense of flow, it’s just alive in every aspect of what you’re about. And so that’s definitely one of, one of those, and I think kind of a follow up from that. And maybe an extension of that is when I’m in, and I think it’s more being a participant in a well-facilitated CPS session. I think a good facilitator just gets you engaged, and you’re, you’re on a roll, you’re, you’re going you’re deferring judgment you’re in, it just feels great. It’s one of those times where I feel at my best. Sometimes I sense a sense of flow when I’m teaching. We have a kind of we call a cohort-based graduate seminar, with a focus on the seminar. And so, when we truly get into those deep discussions that go beyond what we’ve been reading, I sense that that flow then and just being able to get people without pulling them out, you know, dig into different topics. I think that’s my educator flow. But then my heartfelt flow is without a doubt, spending time with the grandkids. Just being able to be there and to be completely immersed and at that level of engagement with the grandkids. It’s a sense of flow that I hope everyone gets to enjoy.
Kim Marie McKernan 23:15
love that you have multiple flows. That’s beautiful.
Anthony Billoni 23:19
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. Just watching my own kids go from their first CPSI experiences to being the young adults, they are now, now I get to watch my partner’s nieces at ages. You know, six and three is just, it’s magic. It is truly magic. And I was just saying the other day how kids don’t need what we do. You know, it’s kind of adults who need it because it’s drummed out of them. And that’s part of why we will always have a job bringing creativity to adults because kids don’t need it. But yeah, it is magic. Well, thank you so much for bringing us a piece of history and, and the currency you know, and the other beautiful thing we found about our guests is that they all seem to find vitality in the present. No one is just coasting through life. At no matter what age and we’ve had people from their 20s and up and it’s I feel it’s beautiful energy I look at looked at Sid and Bea and I never felt an aged feeling in either of them. They went right up to, right up to the edge and they continue to so Sid’s watching over us, no doubt, but thanks again for coming. And we’d like to thank everyone for listening. This is Anthony Billoni.
Kim Marie McKernan 24:57
And Kim Marie McKernan
Anthony Billoni 24:58
And we invite you to tune in again to the creative flow series, And we hope you will translate your creative flow into action and that your actions change the world.
